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| | | Supreme Being
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| Sounds like a good objective. Ideas anyone?- Forum on chapter website documenting known tech issues (e.g. control arms, harnesses, Elise suspension, etc).
- Are your happy with our tech requirements (e.g. brake fluid change interval, harness dates / inspection, convertible rules, etc.)? Should we change anything to improve safety for the student and/or instructor?
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| | | Forum Newbie
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| | The only time I felt unsafe on the track is with totally new drivers pulling a stupid stunt like wildly braking in the middle of a corner or similare. What about having a sticker large enough to be seen while driving to indicate that someone is new? There could be one for the first X days (say three) and a different sticker if this is your first day at the specific track (regardless of total days). Could be useful information for drivers in any run group. Tim
www.Bimmerfest.com
Edited: 2/5/2008 12:17:38 PM by Tim330i |
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| | I'm glad this subject has come up. A few years ago, I had the pleasure of purchasing my first BMW (used) after years of longing for one - a 2001 Z3 3.0. Having tracked a few VWs over the years at drivers schools sponsored by various clubs at a few different tracks, I was excited to have the opportunity to finally track my real, rear-wheel-drive sports car. I was, however, very dissapointed to learn that the BMW club will not allow my car, with its stock roll hoops, into a driver's school without spending close to $2500 to purchase and install an approved roll, harness bar, and harness set for two drivers. It's not that I wouldn't want these things, but there are numerous other things I would like to do to my car. It seems excessive. It also seems odd since the likes of PDA, SCDA and Porche Club of America allow my car into their events. I would much rather run with my own mark, and frankly give my track dollars to the BMW club. What can be done about this? |
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| Tim330i (2/5/2008)
The only time I felt unsafe on the track is with totally new drivers pulling a stupid stunt like wildly braking in the middle of a corner or similare. What about having a sticker large enough to be seen while driving to indicate that someone is new? There could be one for the first X days (say three) and a different sticker if this is your first day at the specific track (regardless of total days). Could be useful information for drivers in any run group. Tim I agree 100% with Tim. I think the implementation of a large X or similar not only will help the student, but also us instructors. It gives enough time to "prepare" to either pass or follow... 
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| sdreskin (2/5/2008)
I'm glad this subject has come up. A few years ago, I had the pleasure of purchasing my first BMW (used)after years of longing for one - a 2001 Z3 3.0. Having tracked a few VWsover theyears at drivers schools sponsored by various clubs at a few different tracks, I was excited to have the opportunity to finally trackmy real, rear-wheel-drive sports car. I was, however, very dissapointed to learn that the BMW club will not allow my car, with its stock roll hoops, into a driver's school without spending close to $2500 to purchase and install an approved roll, harness bar, and harness set for two drivers. It's not that I wouldn't want these things, but there are numerous other things I would like to do to my car. It seems excessive. It also seems odd since the likes of PDA, SCDA and Porche Club of America allow my car into their events. I would much rather run with my own mark, and frankly give my track dollars to the BMW club. What can be done about this?
Clubs obviously differ on convertibles. I'm not in charge, but if I were, I think I'd go along with bmw boston on this. Supposing you rolled, you really wouldn't be in control of your extremities, and it would be very easy to get one scraped off. Without a harness, you could also be thrown high enough to contact the ground. At 50Gs, very nasty things happen. Lots of instructors won't ride in convertibles AT ALL.
Here is a thread with a long discussion at COM.
http://www.comscc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=235&sid=882f1deeb99cafbfc9bf923faae51125
It includes thoughts from an instructor who spent some quality time in a convertible at 80mph heading backwards towards the armco. There are also analyses of some factory roll-bars, although not yours. The consensus seems to be that they are nearly decorative.
SCDA is free to allow convertibles if they want to, and you are free to run with them, but personally, I'm A LOT more comfortable in my car with a real roof AND a very serious roll-bar.
This is serious business.
It is hard to find descriptions of accidents on the internet for legal reasons, but they do happen, people are seriously injured and killed. It's your call how far you want to go to avoid being one of those people. There was an instructor at trillium who had an accident with a passenger recently (one year, two years, I'm too old to remember). As I recall, the passenger's arm was thrown out of the window and his hand will never be the same. This is in a car with a roof.
-j |
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| | | Supreme Being
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| | FWIW, the Boston Chapter convertible rule was discussed at the Driving Events planning meeting. The consensus was that, absent a "proper" roll bar, the factory hardtop provides some protection to keeping arms and heads in the car that a fabric top wouldn't. Each chapter sets their own rules. White Mountain Chapter, for example, allows modern convertibles with just factory roll protection. I suggested that Boston consider adopting the WMC rules and people with much more knowledge of car safety were strongly opposed. I bow to their wisdom. If you have a convertible and want to run with your marque, you might consider White Mountain Chapter. That said, I personally am not excessively happy about instructing in a convertible with just factory roll protection. I'm not sure how much protection a factory hardtop adds, but I'd be inclined to add it or a roll bar before tracking the car. I think if you imagine yourself in the instructor's seat, with a fast convertible and a driver that you don't know, you will understand why some instructors won't take the risk and why different organizations have different rules. EDIT: This all said, I think it is important for the club to know that people want to drive their convertibles on the track. Perhaps there is a another creative solution, such as limiting the car to the novice run group, or doing it only at NHIS where there are more walls and less room to roll.
Edited: 2/5/2008 2:21:48 PM by DanChadwick |
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| | | | | Spins. If you spin, both feet in. If you spin twice in one day; GO HOME. Some event organizers tolerate people on track who routinely spin. I know one guy who "averages" 3 spins per event. Has run with a CCA Chapter (not Boston) for years. Some times we are too nice. As far as I am concerned if you spin, you have had an accident. I do not care if the car is damaged. It can happen to any of us on a rare occassion. If it is happening regularly, however, you need to be moved down a run group or two or sent home. Tech. Boston is fortunate in that it has really good tech. Over the past several years at other clubs I have more than once seen cars lose a wheel. Get with the program. My mechanic checks torque, I check torque and Tech checks torque. How do cars get on track with all lugs loose? The guys are Tech are crucial to our safety. When the other guy breaks, he is going to take you with him. Thanks Tech guys. Overboost. I like rally cars and I have nothing against Evo's and WRX. Done my time on the slick stuff. But, cars with big chips oiling down the track are dangerous. Scariest moment I ever had on track was coming out of West Bend at LRP when a factory supercharged mustang threw a rod. Car in front of me spun in his oil and I narrowly missed hitting him head on. Owner of the Mustang had been bragging in the pits about that he had dyno sheets for 500hp. I have no problem with responsible company chips, but big boost on stock motors puts all of us at risk. IMHO Tech needs to ask about chips and overdriving superchargers, and we need to encourage people to tune a bit softer for track days. It is about the line, a monkey can go fast down the straight. Need that last 1/10th, go buy a spec miata and run SCCA. Point Bys. Why do we use point bys? On the street we have these little lights called turn signals. Why not just use your right turn signal to tell someone to pass on the right, or left turn signal to say pass me on the left. The difference is that when you take your hand off the wheel, most people change their line. I cannot count the times people have pointed me outside, and then opened their line as they had their hand off the wheel. Not sure that even I like this suggestion, as point bys are a proud tradition, but from an engineering perspective, not sure that putting our hand out the window makes sense. And for those who have no turn signals, you are high enough up the ladder that you are used to pointing, so do so. Funny story. At an FCA event I came out of the esses at LRP and had a run on a late model Ferrari. Normally, most guys will stay left down no name and point you to the right. But, this guy moves right and points left. No big deal. I am in 3d and put the hammer down on the S54 and the Coupe quickly moves along side him. Of course as soon as I was along side him, I could see that he was not pointing me by, he was pointing at the debris on the track. About 8' of an exhaust system, and it was not going to fit under the Coupe. Big brakes while the 360 having his wits about him goes to power and opens a space for me to drop in behind him. This stuff happens and I thanked the 360 driver for saving my bacon by getting in the throttle. But, the morale of the story is a point by is not always a point by. Flags. I will always buy a corner worker a beer (after an event). And, I am incredible grateful for all that they do for our sport. But, in addition to Flags I wish we had a little flashing light we could mount on the dash. Too often things happen fast and by time I get to the flag station, it is late. If Corner workers had a little button they could push whenever a waiving yellow is needed, it might be a bit faster. An idea of this sort was tried in rally with some success. Short range transmitter, so if you were within so many feet you got the message. Real world I have been hurt in various sports. By contrast track days are the safest thing I do. And, Boston has a long history as one of the most progressive clubs on safety issues. Hope I did not step on too many toes with the above post. And, if my turn signal suggestion is foolish, I concede it might be. Gregor A fellow track rat from Connecticut |
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| Anonymous (2/5/2008)
....snip....
Why not just use your right turn signal to tell someone to pass on the right, or left turn signal to say pass me on the left.
...snip...
Real world I have been hurt invarious sports. By contrast track days are the safest thing I do. And, Boston has a long history as one of the most progressive clubs on safety issues. Hope I did not step on too many toes with the above post. And, if my turn signal suggestion is foolish, I concede it might be.
Gregor
A fellow track rat from Connecticut
Hi Gregor. I agreed with everything you said. There are clubs which use the turn signals. I don't know why most don't. I've never understood why it is a good idea for me to stick my whole arm out the window at 130MPH (ok, my mini doesn't spend enough time at 130 for me to be giving point bys, but my m coupe was). I know it doesn't feel like the safest thing I could do.
I also agree that boston is good about safety.
I've seen a number of cars show up at driving events with wheels you could move visibly (bearings? I know I wouldn't drive it to the grocery store, let alone the track). It is amazing what people will try to kill themselves with on the track, and the thing is, it isn't a private thing. There are other people on the track too.
In terms of safety, I agree that the injury record is pretty good, but lets remember that people die on the track in DEs pretty much every year. Your odds of getting hurt are very very low, but if you do get hurt, there is a reasonable chance that is serious.
I have found it impossible to get statistics on DE injury rates, which I find strange since all the club nationals must know in detail exactly what is going on, as do their insurance companies. All I can find are isolated posts on forums, usually hushed up fairly quickly "Guys, Lets not talk about this here. Think of the family. Think of the Lawyers.". I'm not saying that there are a lot of injuries. I don't think there are. I just think it's weird that the information isn't available.
Speaking of throwing rods and spilling oil. The s54 is kind of famous for that. Detuned yours yet?
-john |
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| | As to rods, BMW has been good to me. All fixed. Did not wait for a problem. As to passing, a well timed lift and a wave remains the truest expression of a bimmer owner. Best wishes. Gregor Deep in the Southern Hills of CT |
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| | | | | There were a bunch of Boston Chapter guys at the July 07 event at Calabogie last year. Friday of the three day event was constant moderate rain. I was very happy to be able to drive windows up and use turn signals for passing. It was very safe and no one had a problem. Another thing the organizers did was make all passing to the left for all passing zones on the entire track. It sure made it easy to remember which side to pass on. Perhaps that wouldn't work at all tracks, but something to think about. It also works at the Nurburgring. Mike Smith, DelVal Chapter
Edited: 2/7/2008 10:07:39 PM by Anonymous |
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