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RE: Sept 21 event

Mussel Kar — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:57:42 GMT

Excellent post and I could not agree more. When I have the radio I try to position myself safely near the center of my station and only get cones very close to me. I also hold a little meeting with any novice course workers telling them what to expect, and why I expect it. We are all there for fun and many of us are also there for competition. Re runs can sometimes give you a slight advantage, and sometimes put you back on the course with very hot tires.

RE: Sept 21 event

Mussel Kar — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:51:35 GMT

[quote][b]Athena46 (10/3/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Mussel Kar (9/30/2008)[/b][hr]Sheesh! Susan and I skip one event and it all goes to pieces in a heartbeat. JK. Recently I have had to repeatedly tell my corner workers to get off their cell phones. Even had to tell one of them not to sit down again.[/quote]

oh no, don't tell me you were being BOSSY! (-:

but seriously, all this discussion that i started does need to be tempered by a recognition that these problems are not the norm -- most of the people i've worked with have been fun to do it with because they've cared about doing a good job and helping each other achieve that goal. like Larry said, sometimes that's meant pointing out something i've missed seeing, or running over from their spot to help me [sometimes even from the next corner], or catching sight of a car number i missed. then i watch for when i can return the favor. my basic point was about how that focus [on caring about keeping the course right and safe for other drivers] is more important that worrying about having one's ego bruised by being told "not to sit down again" or "check that cone."

so sorry to let you down, but no, even though i missed you and Susan, i have to say that things really didn't go to hell in a handbasket without you. (-:[/quote]

I knew it, your just buzzing me because I took the flag and radio away from you at your first event, and then I politely told you where to go. :P (over to the left)

Hope you had a good time yesterday, I know I did. Susan was a bit frustrated though. Some days you hit them, some days you don't.

RE: Sept 21 event

ejhonda — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 00:39:49 GMT

First of all, let me say I'm in awe of the dedication the Boston Chapter enjoys from key people involved in their autocross program. Larry, Christo, and many others who I can't all name do a great job with handling those issues that crop up during an event. Thank you for those efforts!

Most of the radio problems I heard in the timing tent seemed due to static - meaning there was either interference or weak signal strength from certain stations. Those stations seemed to be the furthest away, so I'm guessing it was signal strength. The other portion of it is the old "press button - pause - speak" stuff that routinely happens with those not accustomed to using a radio.

I've talked with Bryan about the corner boss situation/comments. Unfortunately, I missed out stopping in to O'Hanlon's after the event to follow up with Larry, and I forgot about it.

Granted, I always assume there may be an optimistic explanation to people's behavior, so I'm guessing this may simply be a difference in clubs' philosophies as to what is expected out of a corner boss. At any of the SCCA events I've attended, the corner boss is expected to be in charge of the radio and the flagging - nothing else. Those 2 responsibilities are given great importance, from a safety perspective, so bosses aren't allowed to chase cones, just as they aren't allowed to use cell phones, chat excessively with their co-workers, etc. Chasing cones would distract them from keeping an eye out for situations needing a red flag displayed, and also makes communication more difficult due to tasks that require you to turn your attention to them rather than listen to the radio. So, what I'm guessing is people just apply the norms from other autocrossing events to the Boston BMWCCA events, thinking they're abiding by the rules. I, too, took Larry's comments as an admonition of some who had previously worked as bosses as having a high opinion of their privileges in the corner boss position, and they should pitch in. I simply chalked it up to misunderstandings rather than poor attitudes on behalf of the corner bosses.

While Boston is certainly within their rights to define their work positions as they see fit, I would point out that they pump cars through the course at a tremendous rate, which is a tribute to their efficiencies but can also stress those working the course, as well as the sometimes harried timing tent personnel who may be dealing with a lot of O/C and cone calls. :) I would recommend adding more workers to corners if possible, rather than adding an area of coverage to the bosses who are supposed to be manning the radio and flag. I realize that's dictated by the availability of workers, which sometimes takes a hit based on no-shows or early-departures, but I think it'll help maintain the level of safety we've enjoyed so far.

As far as the comment made earlier about better distribution of workers, it's not always evident as to what areas will be hot spots and which will be dead zones. This typically requires a fair amount of runs to be made before the patterns are established. I think Boston does a fairly decent job of adjusting the workers on the fly - that's a tough thing to do mid-heat.

Hope that helps...

RE: Sept 21 event

Athena46 — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:08:59 GMT

oh no, don't tell me you were being BOSSY! (-:

so sorry to let you down, but no, even though i missed you and Susan, i have to say that things really didn't go to hell in a handbasket without you. (-:

RE: Sept 21 event

Athena46 — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:50:01 GMT

[quote][b]LarryN (

Athena, keep us posted about the car, and I hope it all works out well for you!!! Charles Stromeyer just emailed me that he is having similar issues getting his car fixed in a timely manner. (I guess he needs a clutch and parts are being stubborn showing up)

[/quote]

i lucked out [we think] -- solenoid etc. all checked out fine, but since v-tec is very sensitive to oil pressure, our working hypothesis is that the after-market oil filter a local garage put in when they did the switch to synthetic had started to age and interfer. so my baby now has a new acura-approved oil filter -- and Sat.'s RMC event will be the test. so yeah, i'm thinking happy thoughts.

thanks for remembering and asking, Larry!

RE: Sept 21 event

z28bryan — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:35:44 GMT

[quote][b]MrSubOperator (9/30/2008)[/b][hr]
Last event was the first one when I saw constant conversation via cellphone. I don't know whether it was done previously at driver's meetings but I feel it is worth saying on Oct 12 that corner workers should put their cellphones down.

[/quote]

Are you serious? I'm going to recommend that I be corner boss for the October event then. I'll make sure things are run right at least in my corner and the ones next to me.

RE: Sept 21 event

MrSubOperator — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:29:10 GMT

[quote][b]Mussel Kar (9/30/2008)[/b][hr]Sheesh! Susan and I skip one event and it all goes to pieces in a heartbeat. JK. Recently I have had to repeatedly tell my corner workers to get off their cell phones. Even had to tell one of them not to sit down again.[/quote]

Last event was the first one when I saw constant conversation via cellphone. I don't know whether it was done previously at driver's meetings but I feel it is worth saying on Oct 12 that corner workers should put their cellphones down.

RE: Sept 21 event

Mussel Kar — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:41:44 GMT

Sheesh! Susan and I skip one event and it all goes to pieces in a heartbeat. JK. Recently I have had to repeatedly tell my corner workers to get off their cell phones. Even had to tell one of them not to sit down again.

RE: Sept 21 event

LarryN — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:58:56 GMT

Whew, Back from OFest, and we had a blast there, and showed them how to put on a great couple of autocross events!! (Many thanks to those who were there and help to do that!).

First, I've heard from numerous people that corner bosses on a few events have not shagged cones, and just wanted to point out that nobody is exempt. They should still point to cones in the area that their workers are working (not their personal area) to say it wiggled, and to check it. All corner workers should to that for each other, as they have a different vantage point than the person standing in front of a cone, and might be able to better see slight movement.

It was not intended as saying anybody was lazy. I was just clarifying the "job description". :)

Secondly, we've always called in cones "Car 31, 5 cones, Corner 5", and control will respond with either a repeat of what you said, a "thank you corner 5", or ask for clarification. If there was a talk-over scenario, that corner boss would just call it in again until they get acknowledgment (which is rare, but happens).

Athena, keep us posted about the car, and I hope it all works out well for you!!! Charles Stromeyer just emailed me that he is having similar issues getting his car fixed in a timely manner. (I guess he needs a clutch and parts are being stubborn showing up)

RE: Sept 21 event

Athena46 — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 10:35:11 GMT

[quote][b]madchef (9/26/2008)[/b][hr]Sure the corner boss should be in charge, but what Larry actually said was that they shouldn't just stand around and point people over to cones. That doesn't mean he said they should xxx every single cone on their corner, so I'm not sure why you took it that way. The reason no one 'challenged' Larry is because what he said made perfect sense.

for the record, i wasn't challenging Larry, and i wasn't suggesting that anyone else should have -- i think we all recognize what a fantastic job he does -- as a novice, i was surprised that no one challenged the sulky, belligerent, chip-on-his-shoulder, accusatory tone of whoever made the comment about corner bosses that Larry was trying to respond to in as friendly and conciliatory way as possible.

a. 16

RE: Sept 21 event

z28bryan — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:59:16 GMT

Just a "car xx, y cones, corner z" would be fine enough for me, and then control gives an acknowledgement. No need to ask for corner to control as I think that will take up extra air time.

I usually recommend a non corner boss to hold the red flag, because its a lot of stuff to hold. I'm actually guilty of keeping it in the bucket though I'm always right near the bucket.

Really this was just an odd event where more cones than normal were hit down than normal. I can't remember the last time it was like that.

Who knew corner working could create quite the discussion. We're going to eventually get it down to a science :)

RE: Sept 21 event

madchef — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:26:29 GMT

Sure the corner boss should be in charge, but what Larry actually said was that they shouldn't just stand around and point people over to cones. That doesn't mean he said they should shag every single cone on their corner, so I'm not sure why you took it that way. The reason no one 'challenged' Larry is because what he said made perfect sense. Also, is it really that hard to call in cones, so that we need to teach people how to do it? I don't think so. The system of calling in the cones and waiting for control confirmation works fine imho.

Next time I'm sure we will be more careful about X'ing out old/other boxes during the walk (this was done to some extent, but apparently missed several on corner 2).

Also we had to call in some things for the corner next to us, so as a general rule don't assume that somebody just "saw it" even it it's a DNF due to a guy flying off the course, still have to call it in to control.

RE: Sept 21 event

Athena46 — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:07:30 GMT

[quote][b]00BMW540i6 (9/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]nile13 (9/23/2008)[/b][hr]From the standpoint of the Control person, I'll put my two cents in.

I was corner boss at Corner 1 while Run Group 2 was running. I had almost no help from my other corner workers and ended up running to get 95% of the cones at the busiest corner of the day. I don't mind doing that, but workers that do nothing don't deserve to race, in my opinion.[/quote]

Sometimes it's possible to bring people into the fold, but it's also true that Larry keeps having to turn people away, so the club could declare repeat offenders personna non grata for unwillingness to play nicely with others. What if it were made clear at the driver's meeting [what was said in another post] that corner bosses could radio in a request for more workers? If control responded, "Why?" and the corner boss's response was, "Because the two i have aren't helping" or "Because our area is too long to cover quickly" -- the crew chiefs know who's working each corner and could speak with people who need some attitude adjustment.

RE: Sept 21 event

Athena46 — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:54:10 GMT

[quote][b]MrSubOperator (9/24/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]nile13 (9/23/2008)[/b][hr]From the standpoint of the Control person, I'll put my two cents in.

Another thing that I would like to see is something like more uniform way of talking to Control - like " car ###, corner #, ## cones" - in reality we had people talk through whatever they felt was the appropriate way. That's fine with me in general, but when you have 7 radios coming at the same time, the less time you spend talking the more time you leave for others.[/quote]

standard SCCA protocol is to say "Corner 7 to Control" and then listen for control to reply, "Go ahead corner 7" before continuing -- that way the control person doesn't ever have to deal with 2 people talking at him at once or need to ask a corner boss to repeat a call after s/he's already started paying attention to the next car running. BTW, the noise through the radios was probably caused by wind or heavy breathing because the corner boss was trying to run to replace a cone at the same time as talking [which is a trick, given that you're also supposed to be carrying the flag, not rolled up but also not letting it accidentially unfurl in the face of the oncoming driver].

athena 16

RE: Sept 21 event

repenttokyo — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:34:38 GMT

what i find amazing is that someone ran over the box of chalk and crushed it before the event even BEGAN!

RE: Sept 21 event

z28bryan — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:54:13 GMT

Another thing was that a lot of times when people called in cones to the tent, our radio speakers sounded like they had a lot of static. I couldn't tell if it was just wind or if it was poor coverage. It was hard to hear. So sometimes even though it sounds retarded talking on the radio really slow, it helps us big time :D

I agree. The less air time used on the radio, then you won't have to wait until a 5 minute convorsation is over so you can call in a cone on a car that went across the finish line 10 cars ago. Never mind remember the number.

+10 points to the guy at the corner who asked if Mike wanted to go on a date with him

RE: Sept 21 event

nile13 — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:11:41 GMT

[quote][b]MrSubOperator (9/24/2008)[/b]
I ended up acting as worker boss at corner 2 when RG1 was running and I have to say that planning for workers distribution could have been done better. Corner 2 was a long one, about may be 60 meters all together, and we only had 3 people assigned. wide spread to begin with. Also, and this is something I will be paying a lot more attention too next time, was the way cones were marked - you could barely see that tiny blue line even while standing still right over it, much less when you only had 5 seconds to put the cone back with the car coming right at you at full speed. I personally misplaced a cone once because there were bright spots marked perfectly - but unfortunatelly those were from some other previous event (Miata perhaps).

Another thing that I would like to see is something like more uniform way of talking to Control - like " car ###, corner #, ## cones" - in reality we had people talk through whatever they felt was the appropriate way. That's fine with me in general, but when you have 7 radios coming at the same time, the less time you spend talking the more time you leave for others.[/quote]

The cone chalking is understood and will be addressed, I believe. The number of workers and spread - we did send someone from 6/7 to help on 1/2. I hope it was a little better in the afternoon. If you need more people, don't hesitate to ask Control to send some. There are usually Alternates available and some corners are easier than others. You guys at the corners have a better feel for what you need than the tent people.

The form of communication is also fairly well defined. Just like you said - corner number, car number, number of cones. Listening to all radios at once with 4-5 cars on the course was a little hard.

There was also a suggestion that Timing 2 person writes down the penalties and teh corners they occured at. This way people at teh finish can be told where they hit cones or went off. We did it this way in the afternoon, seemed to work.

I would also like to once again thank the corner workers. It was not an easy event.

RE: Sept 21 event

MrSubOperator — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:11:36 GMT

[quote][b]nile13 (9/23/2008)[/b][hr]From the standpoint of the Control person, I'll put my two cents in.

This Sunday's event was pretty interesting. We had a good number of workers and spread them out well. On the other hand, there were a lot of cones hit, a lot of DNFs and red flagging, much more than usual. My observations:

1. There were a lot of very slow and very late _walks_ to pick up cones. I had people in front of me on the course on at least two of my runs. They looked at the oncoming car and continued to the cone instead of running the hell away.

2. There was at least one occasion when the redflag wasleft in the bucket, not held by anyone. Screaming "Red Flag!" resulted in a person running to the bucket, grabbing the flag, unfurling it... took a lot of time while the previous car spun and was stopped on the track.

3. It is very difficult to hear and understand several calls, especially when teh radio person is running and trying to talk at the same time.

What am I trying to say here? I'd love to have corner bosses to hold the radio and the flag and do minimal amount of running. They would control the other workers, report proper car numbers,make sure the cones are put back in the rightboxes...and bring general sanity to the whole thing. At an event like this Sunday's it would be a little difficult due to the number of hit cones. But something that can be discussed and implemented, perhaps.[/quote]

I ended up acting as worker boss at corner 2 when RG1 was running and I have to say that planning for workers distribution could have been done better. Corner 2 was a long one, about may be 60 meters all together, and we only had 3 people assigned. wide spread to begin with. Also, and this is something I will be paying a lot more attention too next time, was the way cones were marked - you could barely see that tiny blue line even while standing still right over it, much less when you only had 5 seconds to put the cone back with the car coming right at you at full speed. I personally misplaced a cone once because there were bright spots marked perfectly - but unfortunatelly those were from some other previous event (Miata perhaps).

Another thing that I would like to see is something like more uniform way of talking to Control - like " car ###, corner #, ## cones" - in reality we had people talk through whatever they felt was the appropriate way. That's fine with me in general, but when you have 7 radios coming at the same time, the less time you spend talking the more time you leave for others.

RE: Sept 21 event

z28bryan — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:18:54 GMT

Wow that's pretty sad to hear and I agree with you. Some problems I used to notice when I used to work the course... people wanting to talk the whole time, people not spread out enough, people not paying attention to cones that get hit down or bumped or don't check the cone after it was bumped. I've been working in the tent lately so I can only worry about my own job and can't tell what goes on in the course.

I'll admit it's a long working session and standing around gets tiring. I can see if you had 1 cone hit down after working an hour, indicates it's not a hot corner so I don't think there's any issue if people want to talk a bit. As long as they try to pay attention. Missing a cone getting hit down, no big deal as your only human and didn't intend to leave it there. I miss some cones once in a while. But if its a hot corner, everyone should sure as hell spread out, pay attention to the course, get off their cell phones, focus on getting cones setup before the next car. There's no excuse for one cone being hit down to cause a re-run. If you don't do this, you obviously think you are different from everyone else.

That stuff is my biggest pet peeve. Red flagging prematurely or some of the other things is no big deal. Most of the time when those things happen, people are at least trying their best and still getting used to the worker assignment.

RE: Sept 21 event

00BMW540i6 — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:32:17 GMT

RE: Sept 21 event

nile13 — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:42:20 GMT

From the standpoint of the Control person, I'll put my two cents in.

This Sunday's event was pretty interesting. We had a good number of workers and spread them out well. On the other hand, there were a lot of cones hit, a lot of DNFs and red flagging, much more than usual. My observations:

1. There were a lot of very slow and very late _walks_ to pick up cones. I had people in front of me on the course on at least two of my runs. They looked at the oncoming car and continued to the cone instead of running the hell away.

2. There was at least one occasion when the red flag was left in the bucket, not held by anyone. Screaming "Red Flag!" resulted in a person running to the bucket, grabbing the flag, unfurling it... took a lot of time while the previous car spun and was stopped on the track.

3. It is very difficult to hear and understand several calls, especially when teh radio person is running and trying to talk at the same time.

What am I trying to say here? I'd love to have corner bosses to hold the radio and the flag and do minimal amount of running. They would control the other workers, report proper car numbers, make sure the cones are put back in the right boxes... and bring general sanity to the whole thing. At an event like this Sunday's it would be a little difficult due to the number of hit cones. But something that can be discussed and implemented, perhaps.

RE: Sept 21 event

Athena46 — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:23:36 GMT

[quote][b]Dolly Sprint (9/23/2008)[/b][hr][quote]corner bosses should xxx a cone right in front of them[/quote]:w00t:

I don't think this is appropriate in public;)

Cheers

Mark[/quote]

reworded so that now you can focus on the content of the post.

RE: Sept 21 event

Dolly Sprint — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:13:47 GMT

[quote]corner bosses should shag a cone right in front of them[/quote]:w00t:

I don't think this is appropriate in public;)

Cheers

Mark

Sept 21 event

Athena46 — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:43:32 GMT

seems to me that it went about as smoothly as it's reasonable to expect. thanks to Christo and Larry and Scott for all their behind the scenes work -- thanks to Steve for another novice coursewalk [always managing to make them entertaining as well as informative] -- thanks to Christo [a terrific instructor] for hopping in with me -- thanks to Andy K. and Steve and Larry for being supportive about my car problem [still don't know what's wrong -- it goes to service tomorrow]

athena [16 / RSX-s except when i co-drive hubby's 330 ZHP]

PS i was a bit shocked at the driver's meeting when no one challenged the comment about how corner bosses shouldn't be bossy and lazy. personally, i don't agree -- i think corner bosses should take leadership responsibility seriously and should tell us what to do differently when it's needed -- sure, corner bosses should fix a cone right in front of them or run out to help if we're dealing with a clutter of downed cones, but otherwise, i think it's much more effective and safer when they're focused on watching for red flag situations and getting the radio calls right. from what i've seen, working the course is most effective when we work as a team, which i find usually means having the corner boss stand where s/he can spot numbers and do less running, so if i have to right a cone quickly, i don't have to waste time looking at a number long enough for my brain to store it because i know my corner boss has "my back" covered in 2 ways 1) on the number and 2) that s/he's watching the bigger picture and will yell at me if s/he thinks i'm cutting it too close and need to get the hell out of there.

so my two cents worth is that calling a corner boss lazy for not running out for as many cones as other workers is like calling a soccer goalie lazy for not running the length of the field.